Episode. Escaping a High-Control Religious System: Michelle Moffitt on Healing, Power & Voice
Transcript
Michelle Moffitt - 00:00.066
Amanda Montell has written a great book called Cultish and she's got a lot of research in there around these systems and it's not necessarily a total cult, but it has these ideas. And she said, people who end up in these systems are not necessarily broken or naive or whatever. They're overly optimistic. And for me, I think I can keep going back to this place of this childhood that I had. can keep going back to that rape situation where I was like, I don't understand why someone would hurt me.
And then you find yourself in a system where you're like, okay, this is great and everybody's happy and we're sharing the good news and we're for everybody. And then in the background, you're getting this gaslighting, the sky is red. And you're like, I don't really think so, but you're the leader. So I guess that must be what's happening. It's this massive gaslighting from a system.
Theme Music
Welcome to the ownership game with Gary Montalvo. What would it take to get into the driver's seat of your life and leave your mark? The ownership game starts now.
Gary Montalvo - 00:01:16
How do smart, strong, and capable people find themselves trapped in situations where they're being slowly stripped of their power? I am talking about a toxic work culture, a relationship with a controlling, abusive partner, or maybe something more extreme like a high control community, a belief system, a cult.
You think it's easy to look at these situations from the outside and say, well, that could never happen to me. But as you'll hear today, it's a bit more complicated than that and more human than you would think. My guest today is Michelle Moffitt. Michelle's a psychotherapist, a leadership coach, and an author. She's also someone who spent 30 years inside a high-controlled religious system in a marriage and community that systematically stripped her of her voice. Her agency and her identity, all under the banner of faith, belonging and family. But before that, she was raised in a progressive home where her voice was valued and her curiosity was nurtured. In this conversation, Michelle shares what led her into that system, why she stayed and what it finally took to get her out. And as you'll hear, this isn't just a story about religion or marriage.
This is about how any of us can find ourselves trading authenticity for acceptance. We also get into the psychology of control, the real cost of people pleasing and the courage that it takes to rewrite your life when you've built it around rules that no longer serve you. If you've ever felt like you're stuck in a life you didn't consciously choose or maybe judging someone else for being in that position, well.
This episode is gonna be a bit of a wake up call. Let's get into it.
So Michelle, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I'm really excited for our conversation. I think it's gonna be juicy and really valuable. You have a fascinating story, but you also have just what you do and the work you do is fascinating. You're a psychotherapist, you're a leadership coach, you're an entrepreneur, you're an author.
You have all these modalities that you're trained in. So I think it's gonna be an exciting conversation. But before we get into that, I really wanna start with your personal story, because I think it creates context for the work that you do and your message. And so tell me a little bit about how you grew up and what was life. Tell me about your life before.
Michelle Moffitt - 04:03.884
Yeah, like before today. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm born and raised in Seattle, Washington, very supportive family, very progressive, I would say. My dad was a big feminist. My mom had every opportunity to do whatever she wanted. My grandfather was a big feminist. Typical traditional roles were not necessarily part of our family life. My grandfather would open up the hood of his car and
point out all the different parts of the engine and I would have to respond with what was what in there. very progressive. And Seattle is a very progressive place as well. I got to college and had a couple of traumas happen. One was this thing of belonging. And so as we're going through life, we look for belonging in different places. I was belonging to my family and belonging to this city of Seattle and all the things there.
And I ended up going to school in California. and halfway through the year there, after you kind of figure out your freshman year and was excited about returning one of my roommates, OD'd and, and so my parents were like, we're bringing you home. You need to go to school closer. And so was really, wobbly for me, really, dysregulating at that point, I think for a 19 year old to come home. And after you have found, your new place and
being excited about it and moving is always dysregulating for people. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to make this my new home and figure it out. And, within the second week of being at a new campus, I was date raped. Somebody had put something in a drink and I was roofied. so that, that year was very gray. I didn't tell anybody. I didn't, you know, it's the eighties. It wasn't something you talked about and, you know, trying to wrap my head around, like, why did that?
Yeah.
Gary Montalvo - 05:48.75
Oh my god.
Michelle Moffitt - 06:00.788
and why would somebody hurt me? You know, raised in this specific place of lots of love and lots of care and then somebody hurts you, you're like, I don't understand what's going on here. Why would somebody intentionally hurt me? And I think in that time, my body and my brain told me to find safety. And safety presented itself in the form of having rules telling me how I needed to show up in the world. And if I did this certain way of showing up, I would be safe.
And so I bought into that message hook line and sinker. was sold with all of it and I would become the most zealous and the most rule following person there was to keep myself safe. So I found myself taking a really hard right turn and ended up in a high control religious organization and was told how I show up, how do I talk to people? What are the rules here? What I should wear?
Who like I was allowed to talk to women but not men and then ended up marrying somebody with the same belief systems and who eventually became a pastor in the organization, a leader. so, you know, I would call it a triple patriarchy. You know, I had this patriarchal system at home that I didn't get to have a voice in final decisions.
Made for my family or anything around that. I'm a high achiever, so I had five kids because I could do that. And I didn't have any leadership or any agency within the religious system as a woman. I wasn't allowed to have leadership roles or, you know, do anything in that sort in the church, make decisions, vote in certain ways for the organization. And then our greater culture is also patriarchal.
And so I was deeply sunk into this triple patriarchy.
Gary Montalvo - 08:03.606
Wow. Okay. And so before this, you didn't grow up in a system like this.
No, not at all.
And I'm curious for you. So at what point did you, I mean, I don't want to get ahead of the story here, but I guess my question is because what I was present to is like, you grew up in an environment that very much encouraged your voice as a woman. And you, you know, the story that you're telling me with your grandfather is you were trained to really speak up and have an opinion and then you went into this whole environment that didn't and were you aware of that switch at that point? Like was it, you know, was it jarring or was it like, oh this is comforting? Like what, you know what I mean? I'm trying to understand how you transitioned from that to that.
I think, yeah, I think what was going on was more of that safety piece. Like I don't want to get hurt again. And so if you can tell me what I need to do, I will listen to whatever it is. at that point I ended up moving to the deep South and was so I was also kind of baptized into this system where women don't have a voice and women aren't allowed to lead and don't get to have opinions. And, you know, I remember
Michelle Moffitt - 09:30.272
my husband at the time telling me, you need to go help the women in the kitchen. And I was like, what century are we in? Or people would be asking him questions about me when I'm standing right next to him. And so not being able to even answer for myself. But again, I was so scared of getting hurt again or wondering why people would hurt me. So just tell me how to show up.
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Moffitt - 09:57.932
And then being in that system for 30 years, you don't really know what to do. You don't have a voice. can't express yourself. You can't say something's really wrong here. And if you do, you you're, you're cast out. And so I think at one point I'm, I'm told that the people on the outside of the system are bad. And so we don't want to fraternize with them anymore, or we can't be friends with them anymore because they're not following the rules that we are. And so I lost all of my friendships.
I lost connection with people. had a few people that were family that would come alongside of me, but very different from anything I'd been around. And it's such a hard concept to think of when you're on the outside looking in, but really feeling gutwashed is what I would call it. Like I learned to not trust my intuition. I was taught that my heart was evil above all else.
That that is not something that I trust. should just trust the leaders and what they're telling me to do. And so in some sense, if we look at our head, our heart and our gut as the brain centers of ourselves, I was taught to not trust those.
Yeah, you said something that I think it's important to break down a little bit because I think it's very easy for people listening to sort of judge and be like, I would never happen to me, you know, like I would never find myself in that situation or I wish a person would tell me that I can't, you know, like it's very easy to look at it and respond that way. And, you know, obviously you shared your, there was a trauma here in the background informing all of this. So, we know that's on the table. But I also feel, and you could probably speak to that as a psychotherapist, I've been in abusive, toxic,
Gary Montalvo - 12:04.224
relationship before and in my nothing like this I'm not trying to center myself in this story but what I find is this doesn't just happen overnight like there is these sort of like little things that keep chipping away and and happen and they seem like not a big deal so you just kind of brush them off and you just keep going like okay and you're probably getting something out of it, right? Like, I don't have to risk. don't have to somebody doing all the hard lifting in life for me. That's great. But I think it would be, can you talk a little bit about your experience of how that was for you and how did you, you know, looking back, how did you find yourself in this situation as well? Because it's not a black and white overnight. You just flip a switch and all of a sudden you're like, yes, I want all of this. I want the toxicity. I want that, you know?
Right, well, I think some of that is the black and white thinking, right? It's a very simplistic way of thinking. And it's so I'm either in or I'm out or I'm right or I'm wrong. And in the system, what they're telling you is you're in and you're right and you don't want to be in the other half of that. And without much prefrontal cortex at the time either, right? Our prefrontal cortex isn't completely formed until we're 26. We're stepping into this place of just the simplistic thinking.
And if I'm cast out, then what? And 100 % of the time, if we kind of follow that trail of, if I'm not a part of this, then I won't have any friends. And if I don't have any friends, I can't survive. if I can't survive, I'm going to die. And it's just a super highway in our brain that's put there for our safety. And so without stopping to pause in that place, we head down that all the time. And so in this place, I was like, okay, I can belong to the system. And remember that the belonging piece is so strong for all of us.
We want to belong somewhere. And so they're promising, you can belong here. And there's a lot of love bombing going on. There's a lot of like, we've got events for you to attend every day of the week. You don't really have to think about like trying to find friends. If you're sick, we'll bring you meals, right? This system is beautiful and hard at the same time. And I think for me at 22 years of age,
Michelle Moffitt - 14:24.768
stepping into a relationship with somebody who was narcissistic and part of this church system and high control, I was like, okay, this, guess this is what it's supposed to be. You know, he says all the right answers, the church has the right answers. I'm just going to follow them without thinking about it. But I, you know, again, I've sat in some systems, know, religious places that have this kind of thinking and it's, it's like reductionary.
Right? Like I'm operating my thoughts and my beliefs and my understanding around the world and opinions out of like three boxes. I'm going to filter everything through these three boxes of beliefs. And when it comes out the other end, it doesn't really make sense, but it makes sense in your head because this is what you're supposed to do. I think another big thing for me was the teaching was that divorce is not an option. And so I'm finding myself in an abusive marriage.
And I just have to, like, I can't leave. Like, I just have to figure out how to make it work. And the teaching for women also in the system is we're the problem. And so I just, you know, time after time of writing in my journal, I'll try harder. I'll be more respectful. I'll not bring that up again. You know, just putting yourself in a position of great harm. And it's really difficult to get out. Really, really difficult.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, because what happens in these types of situations, there's like, there's an indoctrination, right? And then slowly, you start to, and again, not the same situation, but I can see the playbook, right? They start to separate you from your relationships, start to cause friction so that you're isolated and then your only support system is that world or that person, you know, and they all these ways that start to chip at your confidence and your, and so you start to doubt yourself, you start to go, well, am I crazy? Maybe I'm the one that, well, if I try this way, if I pray harder, if I, for me, it's like, I'm, you know, I'm a leadership coach. So it's like, I get responsible.
Gary Montalvo - 16:47.374
If I get more committed, if I bring more communication distinctions to the conversation, if I, you it's like, you start, you know, I wasn't using scripture, but I was using my own distinctions to try to, but the point was that it wasn't from a place of like reinforcing an empowerment. It was from a place of like reinforcing a doubt that I was trying to.
I have to be the one, you know, and you to a point where somebody's like, Hey, this guy is red. And you're like, okay. I don't see it, but it must be red if I can't, you know, something has to be wrong with me.
Now, and honestly, Gary, think a lot of times we, Amanda Montel has written a great book called Cultish, and she's got a lot of research in there around these systems. And it's not necessarily a total cult, but it has these ideas. And she said, people who end up in these systems are not necessarily broken or, you know, naive or whatever. They're overly optimistic. And, know, for me, I think I can keep going back to this place of this.
Childhood that I had, can keep going back to that rape situation where I was like, I don't understand why someone would hurt me. And then you find yourself in a system where you're like, okay, this is great. And everybody's happy and we're, we're sharing the good news and we're for everybody. And then, you know, in the background, you're getting this gaslighting, this guy is red and you're like, I don't really think so, but you're the leader. So I guess that must be what's happening. It's this massive gaslighting from a system.
And that's, you know, I found myself in that as well of like, this is, you know, reporting to these leaders, I'm having a lot of abuse at home and I need some help. And they told me, you know, we don't believe you. In fact, they said you need to repent. And so at that time, I'm like, I don't lie. Like, I'm not a liar. That's not part of my character. What are they asking me to do? And why are they not believing me? I thought these people were.
Gary Montalvo - 8:52.706
Why you go lie about that? Yeah. So you're kind of setting up where I wanted to go next. So tell me a little bit about, you you find yourself in this marriage. I guess at what point did you start to go, something's wrong here. And then how did you get to that place where you knew something was wrong enough that you were willing to shake things up?
Yeah.
Michelle Moffitt - 19:21.574
Yeah, yeah. I think I always knew something was wrong. two weeks into my marriage, a lot of times with people that struggle with somewhere on that narcissism spectrum, we'll say, they flip a switch. And so once they get you to say, do, or to commit and sign on the dotted line in a business or marriage or whatever it is, they flip. so you're like, this isn't the person that I've been dating, this isn't the organization I thought I was going to be a part of. And then you're kind of stuck, especially within this belief system that you can't leave. Like you have to work it out. And so two weeks.
Is that because the first part is like a manipulation and then once they don't have to manipulate anymore they're like, okay, you're in now. I got you locked in. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Take my mask off and I'm. Okay. Yeah. And I, two weeks into my marriage, you know, hiking and, and, you know, I'm chatty. I have a lot of words. My nickname growing up was motor mouth Michelle. And, and so with my, new husband and we're walking through the woods and then I kind of go, how come you're not adding to the conversation? You know, you're not giving opinions and he sits down and puts his head in his hands and says, I've lied to you. And I was like.
Okay, what have you lied about? And you know, how fast I run the 40? What my grades were on my test? How much I weigh? How much you know, things I've, things I've eaten, you know, just different, like everything. And then he's like, and I also was with somebody before we were married.
Gary Montalvo - 20:53.504
So he lied about all those things?
Yes. And so then I'm sitting there like, okay, I said, I do, I can't get out of this. This, don't know what to do here. And then he said, please don't tell anybody. And I said, well, okay. and so I'm also supposed to obey my husband. So I'm not supposed to tell anybody. And I couldn't, I couldn't quite get through that. And so I asked somebody for help and they said, if I don't forgive him, then it becomes my issue.
And so it just kind of swept under the rug and I just have to keep going. And so very early on, there was a lot of signs that something was wrong and I just had to try harder or maybe it was my fault or I just had to make it work. you know, often I would be around other women who were married to these leaders and they would say, yeah, my marriage feels like we're just becoming companions right now. And I didn't even know where to start.
So I just never said anything. I'm like, I don't even know where to start with this because it's so confusing and so hard. And I'm just going to have to, I just have to deal with it. And so things got really bad and there was some stalking involved and like just, was very, the home life became very confusing and I got really nervous. And he had some really intense mental health issues happening.
And so I needed help and even.
Gary Montalvo - 22:19.81
So like what was happening was their was their physical was their outbursts like just
There was always some of that, the stocking piece was really unsettling. was tracking on my phone. There was literally the white surveillance van following me in those places. So I needed to reach out. I didn't know what to do.
Wow.
Gary Montalvo - 22:49.448
And how many years are into the marriage is this?
Probably 2022 maybe.
22 okay, yeah you you hung in there girl i'm a fighter.
You hung in there, wow, okay. So 22 and so after 22 years you finally decided, okay, I need to...
Michelle Moffitt - 23:14.978
Well, I need help. Somebody needs to know what's actually going on in my family and he needs help. And, you know, I have five kids and at this point, you know, I haven't had a job. I've been free labor for the church. You know, it's a plus one always. And so there's a huge gap in my resume. There's no funding. You know, it's noble, you know, in their world to be living in poverty and, you know, putting the...
God will provide for us right out there all the time. and so, I really had nowhere to go. Right. And so I'm looking for help from these church leaders and asking for a lifeline and saying, can you help me wait through these waters and get my husband's, they were like, to college at that point. Yeah. And so that's where I'm, I'm sitting in a room with them and they've,
all three kids.
Gary Montalvo - 24:04.568
They're coming, okay.
Michelle Moffitt - 24:13.994
Asked me to share my story. So I've written out this story of 25 years on three pages and I'm sitting in front of eight men and one woman who was there to be my moral support. And I've known these men for 10 years. Like these are people that I've holidayed with and vacationed with.
That's so intimidating.
And Gary, you know, so I wore my high heel shoes because it made me over six feet tall, right? I'm wearing pants. I'm walking in there going, okay, I got to, got to present this. And I'm reading the story and I look up and they say, we don't believe you. You need to repent. And so at that moment I was like, okay, what did they ask wait, hold on. Did they talk? Did they take a minute to talk it out? they, like...
Yeah, I had met with some of them prior and they had known what I was going to share. know, part of these systems is everything is kept in house. And so this is one of the things I actually just discovered. So I'm also a therapist, fortunately went to get my degree late in life. So I had some way to provide for myself and my kids. But in the system, I would go and ask if I weren't safe for you. Like if you want to find a therapist, you would go ask your pastor. If you want to find
Michelle Moffitt - 25:30.322
any professional help, you would go find a pastor that, and then they would tell you, go find this. Here's a lawyer we trust. Here's the plumber we trust. Here's the therapist we trust. And so everything is kept in-house. And so, you know, when I'm doing my business now and I'm going, I go to, you know, ask a friend, said, if you needed a therapist, would you go ask your pastor? They were like, no, like I'm, just going to go find a clinically trained therapist. Right. But there's like, Everybody's keeping everything in house. And so my husband needed help. Everything was kept in house for him. He wasn't like part of like didn't go to a Psych ward or you know any a psych hospital he was kept in house with a psychologist that somebody else knew
So eventually they realized that he didn't need help and this is where it gets little sticky because at some point I don't get to know any information. I don't know how they're dealing with him. I don't know what's going on with his job. don't know. You know, at the very end of our time with that organization, he came to me and he said, God finds great delight in me being the pastor of this church. I was like, okay, that's a little narcissistic. And I said,
Well, what if I don't want to be the pastor's wife? And he said, well, I can't be the pastor if you're not the pastor's wife, because it's a two for one. And he was like, is that ultimatum? And he said, no, it's but it's worth the conversation. And then the next day, he didn't have a job anymore. So that's where it gets a little sticky about who believes what and what actually was going on. But again, in my research around this and writing my book, there's a thing called a
Michelle Moffitt - 27:18.446
impression management systems where what is happening on stage is very different than what's happening behind closed doors. And everything is for the audience to see this perfect thing. And so there was a lot of that covering. And again, I, I, I remember asking multiple people, like, I don't understand why they're hurting me. Why won't they help me? Like if they're, you know, they're my friends, what's going on here and they're, they're protecting the system at any cost.
So you had this conversation it sounds like you told him you wanted to separate and did that go over well because it sounds like you just didn't have a job what happened yeah, well, we were going to need to move because our housing was caught up in the church. My kids were in private schools that they were the scholarship kids because they were Christian schools and they were going to need to leave those because he was no longer going to be a pastor. And then it really became this place of I've lost everything anyways, like nobody at church will talk to me. They've asked me not to attend, you know, as seen as a troublemaker. And so at that my mom was really sick and lived on the other coast. so my sister and I, were together in the hospital with her and I was like, I really want to move home. I want to move back to Seattle. and she, you know, she was like, well, you can't, know, you've, can't take your kids out of school right now and move them and all these things. And I was like, okay. And then she went home and her husband's like, she needs to get out right now. And so, you know, just, I had what I would call a personal board of directors and they helped me with every email that came and went.
To make sure that I'm not sharing too much information or making sure that we knew legally what grounds I had for anything. Like the church was going to put a statement out about me. My lawyer on my board of directors said, well, we will kindly and gently tell them that that's Lander.
Gary Montalvo - 29:17.784
Board of Directors, it's like your personal board or the board of directors? Okay, got it. Yeah.
Yeah. there was. Whose idea?
idea was that.
Yeah, where did that come from?
I just knew that I needed a team around me and somebody was a lawyer, somebody could help me with my finances, somebody would help me with what do I tell my kids, somebody would let me cry with them. Somebody else wouldn't let me cry with them, so I didn't go to them.
Gary Montalvo - 29:40.386
Yeah.
Gary Montalvo - 29:44.896
I love the idea of a advisory board. It's actually a really kind of smart strategy when you're going through something like this, right? Because you're going to need to some village, right? OK, so you're navigating this transition. It sounds like the church was trying to mess with you a little bit. You went back home. And how, like now what? Because this is.
I mean, you've been plugged into the system for 30. actually, before we even go there, did your family understand what was happening? you know what I mean? Like, did they understand the scope of it or did they just think you were like really religious now and really into it?
Yeah, I think they thought it was really religious and really into it. They didn't accept it. They were, you know, very supportive, very supportive family. but I, you know, it was very hidden about what was going on because I was supposed to be, it was supposed to be perfect. We were all supposed to be perfect and have this facade.
Yeah, because I just thought of your brother-in-law going like they need to get out right now. I was like, he knew something was up.
And this is like by that time this had been going on for a couple years and I was like something's not right here and I need help and I don't know how to navigate this and yeah so it was it was a couple years of me reaching out to a few select people going I don't I don't understand what's going on here.
Gary Montalvo - 31:22.006
Yeah. So you go back home, you've been plugged into the system for 30 years, and now what?
Yeah, I mean, I think that that step off, like you're walking on a plank and eventually you step off. And that's the most terrifying part because I don't have, I don't have a community. don't have people. I don't have a network. don't like I'm, I'm literally left this system that I have been a part of for 30 years and I'm not welcome there. And then I'm also trying to.
Redo how I think about the world and life. And there was extreme, I would call it dissonance in my body, where I would be like challenging ideas that were coming across. Like, I don't know, is that okay? Is it okay to listen to that music? I mean, I remember the first time I put on some secular music in the house, my kids that were home were like, what's up with mom? Right? We weren't listening to Christian music anymore. And they were like, And then I was like, am I going to get smote? Right. Is God going to be displeased with me? Because it was always about what is glorifying to God and what's pleasing for God and following the rules. And so is it OK if I watch this movie? Is it OK if I decide I don't want to, you know, get up at six in the morning or, you know, be busy or is it OK if I don't go to church?
You know, and I would feel this like incredible discomfort in myself of like, okay, I'm just going to let this roll through me. This is the dissonance of deciding to change my mind.
Gary Montalvo - 33:02.626
Yeah, yeah, I know. mean, it would.
it would have to feel like you're just taken out of your life and dropped it in a whole other planet, you know, in many ways and having to understand how to be in this world and the oxygen has to feel different and the things have to look different. you, go ahead.
I just, there's so much hypervigilance. So there's hypervigilance in the system of like always checking. Am I doing what's right? Is everybody okay with me? And also as a pastor's family, your salary comes from tithing. And so if you're giving money to the church and I see you at Starbucks or Target, you're free to kind of judge what's in my cart, how I'm spending money. And so you're, always like watching, is it okay that I'm here? What's in my cart? Am I going to run into anybody?
Is it okay for me to be on the planet? And then when you get out of that, the system, like I still was checking all the time. Is it okay? And, and because they told me in that meeting with those eight men, they don't believe me. I always wondered if anybody would believe me. And so I'm, and I was like, I don't want, I don't want to be the story. I don't want to meet people and have to explain where I'm coming from because it's so weird. And, you know, but will they believe me if I tell them?
Yeah.
Michelle Moffitt - 34:30.87
I feel like that TV show, The Unbreakable, Kimmy Schmidt. Yeah.
Such a good show.
Such a good show, right?
I mean if you're finding humor in life afterwards that makes me really happy to hear.
So, you, we haven't talked about your kids and like, I just, what, what's like, what's happening with them? What was this like for them? Like, are they also feeling the impact of this?
Michelle Moffitt - 35:10.336
I like to say this is my story and they have their own about what went down. I would say it was really hard for them because their mom was the stability around them. And when I changed my mind about different beliefs or how to show up in the world, it was really destabilizing for them. And they've all, you know, kind of had to find their way. And as you do in your twenties also, right? You're kind of figuring out who you are and what the world.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:39.788)
out there means to you. So yeah, I think it was.
forward to their books when they drive.
Bigger, story.
Okay, so you have your council, you're going, it sounds like you at some point decided to go back to school. Tell me about that and how did you choose, I mean, I think I kind of know, but talk a little bit about how you ended up choosing psychotherapy.
So I actually went back when I was still in my marriage and the…
Michelle Moffitt - 36:22.092
The places that a woman can show up in a career are mostly helping fields, right? So like therapy, teaching, nursing, I didn't really know any corporate women that were part of the system because that wasn't, you like you're a boss lady, right? That's not really allowed. And so, but again, when we're talking about that system and that bubble that you live in, the pastors needed someone to talk to their people as a therapist that they trusted.
So I would say that it was like, was clinically trained and biblically informed. And so I would be the person that they would send their people to if they needed marriage help or anything else. Rebranded my therapy practice since, but.
So you actually were already practicing therapy while you were
I had just started and I honestly I think that was part of what made things go extremely south too because I all of sudden had my own thing going on.
Yeah, and I would imagine you're going to school, you're having these conversations where it's gotta be like, you can't really do that work without taking some of your own medicine and looking, you know.
Michelle Moffitt - 37:37.868
Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. remember a couple of things. I remember this book was on one of the pastor's desks that I was using as an office and it was the emotionally destructive marriage. And I'm reading it for a client and the beginning of the book has an assessment in it about you might be in an emotionally destructive marriage if and I start going through the assessment and that was a yes. I was like, huh, wow, didn't see that coming.
And then I had another friend suggest listening to these videos and it was talking about narcissism. And that's when the lights really went on for me. Like, my gosh, I'm in this system and I'm married to this. And, you know, I binge watched these videos over and over and over of like, my gosh, this is what I'm dealing with. This is really true. So, you know, I think, Thankfully, I got that degree and I could start a practice once I moved. But yeah, like learning, learning all the things was, you know, part of it was I was learning as I was practicing on myself, like how to boundaries, you know, how do I, how do I do cross body movements? So I'm healing and things aren't resting as trauma in my body.
Yeah. How I wanted to, well, how long ago was this by the way that you left? Seven years ago. Okay, so it's happened, like you spend more time with this planet in that system than out of it. How, let's switch it up now. I wanna kind of get into some of your professional work. First of all, I'm really interested in,
Michelle Moffitt - 39:04.556
than years ago.
Gary Montalvo - 39:28.46
that you switched, well, I'm interested that you became a coach after a therapist. What was that about?
I mostly, I think the biggest thing is if you're familiar with the Enneagram. you done that?
I'm familiar with it. haven't like deeply studied it or gone through it, but I'm familiar with it. And we should talk about what that is actually since you're, It's a personality assessment, but it's more of a dynamic tool of growth. And so if we're doing like the Myers-Briggs, it's a very kind of stagnant tool. says, this is who I am and how I show up in the world. And it was actually developed for women going back into the workplace back in the sixties. So they could take the Myers-Briggs and go, here's a better job for me based on my personality type. The Enneagram is much more dynamic. And so it shows you your strengths.
It shows you places that you need to grow. But it's all about your motivation. Like what's your motivation for showing up on the planet? And basically when we're children, nobody has perfectly attuned parents or caregivers. And so in that space as a child, you're trying to protect, you know, whatever is your true self or the best way you show up on the planet because you're too vulnerable at that point to let that part of you out. But as adults, we don't need to keep protecting that.
Michelle Moffitt - 40:52.216
And so we want to let that big strength of ours come out. It's a great tool in relationships. It's a great tool in the workplace because you start understanding who the people are around you and how to best get along with them, how to best be on a team with them, understanding, that's because of this. it's not a weakness of yours. You're just showing up differently. So IMS7 on the Enneagram, which is the enthusiastic visionary.
And, and so I would prefer to sit in place and I am a pain avoider. I'm allergic to pain. And so as a therapist, I can make connections very quickly. Like if you said the same word four times in five minutes, we'll go back and figure out what that was about or figure out what it was from your past and how do we translate that. So moving into coaching really is kind of a more positive aspect of therapy. Right. I'd rather, I'd rather work.
like now what for you, then let's dig into all the trauma. I mean, we touch that because that's just part of who people are. We'll touch on trauma, touch on past, but really coaching is much more forward oriented.
Yeah, are you do you are you still Are you mainly coaching now and informed by your therapeutic background or you still have a practice for both or you do?
both. So.
Gary Montalvo - 42:18.562
So interesting. I'm always, it's always interesting to me. We've had a few therapists who have become coaches and I'm always really fascinated by that. And one of the things that I think is exciting about coaches who have turned therapists is that, you you guys have some, bit more of the scientific background behind some of the stuff that.
That I work with all the time, but maybe can't cite where that, you know what I mean? Like don't have that. So I was always going like, oh, wow, science to back up what I believe in, what I do. Okay, that's great.
Yeah.
So it's always exciting to have one. So if any of grand static, does it change over time? Or can you be from a seven and then later become a six or something like that?
No, because your motivation is always static over time. you know, like, say we're, I'll give you an example, say we're baking cookies and that's the behavior that we're all going to do. But how we show up, how the nine types show up and that are very different in their motivations. So the one is the improver and or the perfectionist and they're going to level their flower off.
Michelle Moffitt - 43:39.64
follow the directions exactly on the back of the Toll House cookie. The two is the helper, so they're going to notice what everybody likes, and they're going to make cookies per person. The three is going to go to Costco because they're the competitive achiever, and they're going to get the biggest plate of cookies and bring the largest cookies into the show. The four is the creative, and they're going to do something from the Great British Baking Show.
The fives are the researchers and they're going to investigator. They're going to find out the best recipe, the best ingredients, where they're coming from. They don't care if anybody eats them. They just want to investigate all the stuff. The six is the loyalist and the risk adverse.
So they're going to make sure that if we're not going to run out of cookies. So if the cookie jar is half full, they're going to go ahead and bake some. So we're not running out. Seven, the enthusiastic visionary is going to put something together with sprinkles.
They're always moving, they're going on to the next thing, they do a workout and they burn the cookies. The aides are the controllers and they're not going to make cookies because you told them to make cookies. And then the nines are the peacemakers and they know that cookies make everybody happy. So we can avoid the conflicts in the room. And so you can see in a team situation or anything, it's really helpful for me to know how you're presenting so that I could, I can speak your language or get feedback in a way that's helpful to you.
But your motivation doesn't change over time. You can become more aligned in your behaviors.
Your motivation doesn't change over time. So let's explain that. my first instinct, I'm like, but it could, no? Like if you become a parent or something, or a life, if you're a different place in your life. But how does your motivation, how would that not change your motivation? Or how does your motivation get shaped in such a way that it would stay consistent throughout all those things?
Michelle Moffitt - 45:37.43
Well, there's time, there's, there's all kinds of ways to look at the enneagram. And there's also stress lines and release lines. And so as a seven, my stress line goes to the one. And so I showed up like a one for a really long time, because I was under so much stress. But my basic motivation of I want to have fun. I want to create things the way that my brain works. It's like monkey mind, whack-a-mole, lots of stuff going on. But I would be.
Very strict on a schedule. of course I had kids and so that, but my desire for living was I want to, I want to create, I want to move. got to get going. I want to have fun. Um, you know, so, so it's interesting in those spaces. My release line goes to a five, which is the investigator. And I love reading and love learning. And so when I'm in a good space, I'll go take the time to go do that. So your motivation will still stay the same. Your behavior will change depending on.
life stage or where you show, you know, but I can think back to always being in this space, always liking adventure. I wanted to be a flight attendant because they wore cute outfits and they got to travel around the world. So same thing.
Me too.
Gary Montalvo - 46:56.44
Do you, how is motivation shaped? Is it genetic? Is it socialized? You know, at what point does that get shaped for us?
Yes. Yeah, I mean, I nature and nurture, I think it's both true, right? We come out as very unique people. And, you know, I think a bigger part about the Enneagram that I love is if we have this part of ourselves that nobody else carries, right? Your DNA is different than anyone else's on the planet. And maybe your job in life is to give away that part so we can all
Got it.
Michelle Moffitt - 47:38.478
learn something new and see the world in bigger and better ways. And so once we become adults, we want to share that. I don't want to walk into a room and go, how do I need to show up for you? How do I measure up? What are your expectations? I want to go into a room and go, here I am. And I'm happy to give myself away.
Yeah, I love personality profiles. think that they're assessments that you learn so much about yourself. And the one thing I kind of want to end this part of the conversation on is I've also seen people use it against themselves because they start judging how they are. And I think it's important to just understand that if you do these assessments, it's amazing information. It also doesn't mean that you can't thrive in other areas where maybe your strengths are not natural. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't push yourself to learn or achieve things in areas where maybe it doesn't come to you naturally. But I think it does allow you the opportunity to do it without judging yourself, making yourself wrong, trying to fix something about yourself. Like it's, you know, it's like, this is not where I naturally excel. So I may have to work a little harder. I may have to find a way to make this more fun for me. I may have to find a way to digest the information or to support myself in some other way. It's information to, it's valuable information to support you in that strategy. But please don't.
Go using this information to now invalidate something, to now try to fix something about yourself, or as more evidence as to why your life doesn't work, some-
Michelle Moffitt - 49:31.2
Well, think it's it's it's kindness, right? It's self kindness of looking at it and going there's a lot of really good strengths here. And I would say with the Enneagram, we call that the EEC factor. When you find out your type, your type is always the type that you most don't want to be. You know, like a lot of people will will say, sevens are so fun and we love having sevens, but they're also flighty. And, know, and like, like if I'm putting together a talk, right, let's it or writing my book.
It is so hard because I think in collage and I don't think linearly. And so I'm like, wish that was a skill of mine, but it's just not how I work. And so I'd much rather be like a one that thinks straight ahead and what's the next thing, but it's not. And so I could get down on myself about that, or I could go, okay, well, I'm just going to be kind. this is how it, I call it chunking, right? All this information is out here and it keeps coming back together.
Yeah, and develop strategies around it, right? Like, you know that things are gonna take you a little bit longer because you're not thinking linear. you map around that, you're skipping your plan around that. You know that you might have to take out some of the distractions and things like that, right? I love it. Okay, so as we wrap up, you know,
The likelihood of someone in your past situation listening to this podcast is small because we know that those systems are closed. But I think the likelihood of someone listening to this podcast who finds themselves after leaving transitioning from one of those situations.
And I think it's also important to say that, you know, your situation focused on, you know, this was a religion, it was a church that you were sort of like in this controlled system. But there are many types of controlled systems out there. And I think that it's important to say that. And you shouldn't just be looking for the church or the religion, you should.
Gary Montalvo - 51:55.254
Be looking for any type of system, whether it's a job, whether it's an institution, whether it's a family dynamic, you know, that is keeping you, you know, under tabs, under control. You know, what advice, what are the final words? What are the next, you know, some advice that you would give to people that are finding themselves now transitioning from one of these systems and how do they rebuild and how do they move forward and how do they go on and create, know, take ownership of what's happened and create the lives of what's next for them.
Yeah, I love that question. I think of a lot of different organizations that fall into that place. And one specific is all those multi-level marketing companies. And you're finding belonging. Let's go on this really fun work retreat. And here's my people. But yet, what is the profit you're getting? And how are you showing up? So I would say you know, the title I wanted for my book originally was I changed my mind, my journey with repentance. you know, repentance in the way that I had been told was I'm going the wrong way. Now I need to turn 180 degrees and go the right way, which is also important. That's a good thing to do. But also in Hebrew, the word repentance means to go inside. And so when we're looking at what do we do next, how do I trust myself? How do I make decisions for myself? I'm going in inward.
And I'm going to listen to my intuition. I'm going to listen to how I feel about something. I'm not going to just put on a mask. You know, I liken it to like trying on an outfit. Like, does it fit? Does it feel good? You know, if you've got a wedgie and camel toes, that's not the right outfit for you. And, and so, you know, I think in that space of like really learning to sit with that dissonance, like this is a challenging belief I'm facing that I'm not sure about. And then how do I, how do I want to show up? What's okay for me.
Michelle Moffitt - 54:06.766
I think in the religious systems it's hard because they also have a God card, like what God says. And you can question that. Does he really? Is he going to be displeased with me if I change my mind, if I do something different?
Yeah, I'm always like, I don't know guys. My God is a really loving God. don't know. My God parties with me. He celebrates.
I mean, honestly, you know, it's like there's scripture that says like you're knit together in your mother's womb, fearfully and wonderfully made. Right. So once the baby's inside the mom, they're like loved and, you know, God sees great delight in, you know, all these kids somewhere in the birth canal. They become a big sinner. Yeah. It's like what the belief system is like, you're wretched and a sinner. And it's like, really? When did that happen? I I think, you know,
My God doesn't judge. don't know. My God wants me to know I'm loved no matter what.
Right? Yes.
Gary Montalvo - 55:06.446
Well, Michelle, thank you so much for this conversation. And you, you, we haven't touched on your book, but can you just, you know, you've put all this in a book. Can you just give people the title and where to find it and tell them about it?
Certainly. Cracked Open, A Journey with a Resilient and Independent Mindset. It is indie books, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can find it any of those places, but it's part memoir. And then part of what we talked about today of just kind of the psychology of how do we find ourselves in these places and how do we get out? So it's a, then there's, yeah, the back is full of all kinds of tools for you to, how do we draw boundaries? How do I think about this differently? And.
resource.
Michelle Moffitt - 55:51.822
How do I be responsible for my own life?
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for coming and spending time with us. Thank you for your honesty and sharing your story. I think, you know, it's a really important story to share. There's lots to learn from that. And, you know, we haven't really talked about this, but I am gonna make this assertion just based on the work that you're doing and how you're sharing your story that there's a forgiveness that I think you've done. And I'm really inspired by that as well because that's one of the things that kind of holds us stuck in our evolution and in our healing is just like an unwillingness to forgive ourselves. And how did that happen? And how do I let myself get there? And why would I do that?
All of that, and you seem to have done a lot of work to forgive and just not focus on the past, but really focus on how you can now be a contribution to others and use that as a lesson.
Yeah, I think it's hard because I think you'll go back there in your story a lot. feel very behind is the word that comes up a lot for me. Yeah. But it doesn't help me. It doesn't serve any purpose. And so for the listeners, when you find yourself in that space, that's OK. That's OK that you're going back there and thinking about it, but then ask yourself, is it serving any purpose? And I think I don't like cheap forgiveness for people that have done stuff without.
Michelle Moffitt - 57:36.138
I don't like saying, I forgive them and they're off the hook. I think kind of where I sit with that is this, I just want to be judgment free because I sat in a place where I said and did a lot of things that were harmful. And so if somebody is in that space of doing harm or falling along, being complicit, I think in a system, I would say no better do better.
Yeah, you gotta look. All right, Michelle, thank you so much. Come back soon, okay?
Okay, thank you.
I keep coming back to how easy it is to say, that could never happen to me.
But the truth is, it's easier and more common than we think. Heck, I've been there myself. I have found myself in a controlling and emotionally abusive relationship. I have found myself being part of high control groups and communities, not fully realizing the scope of what I had gotten myself into. And I would describe myself as someone who's highly intuitive. I read people well. I am a coach for God's sake.
Michelle Moffitt - 58:43.774
here's the thing, these dynamics don't come in like a wrecking ball. They come in slowly. They come disguised as belonging, as support, as love, empowerment. And little by little, there starts to be a switch up. Little by little, the system starts training you to be confused, to question yourself and not trust your instincts, to follow their rules, to give up part of yourself for the whole. Until one day, you wake up and you realize you don't know which way is up anymore. I know I'm laboring this point, but it's because I think that one of the things that holds these systems in place is judgment. Judging yourself and probably more specifically the fear of being judged by others. We are not great at looking at areas where we experience shame. We are not great at sharing about areas where we experience shame.
Shamy roads are a sense of power, our confidence, our sense of belonging in our relationships around us. And this creates a perfect condition to hold these systems in place. In order to dismantle them, in order to have the type of intimate conversations that bring things to light, in order to feel the support needed to step away from these systems, and in order to move forward and free yourself, you have to be willing to give up the judgment.
You have to be willing to forgive yourself. Only then can the real work of reclaiming your power and your voice, rebuilding the trust and confidence in yourself can begin. And perhaps more importantly, we have to be willing not to judge them when they are finally ready to take that big step. So if any part of this conversation hit home for you, if you're questioning a dynamic in your life, if something feels off,
You can't quite name it. I want you to know that you're not crazy. You're not weak and you're not alone. Rebuilding starts with just noticing. Just naming what's happening is a powerful first step back to yourself. Then ask yourself, what are you not saying? What are you not free to express? And begin the work of sharing your truth. And if you are in any kind of dynamic where your truth isn't being honored,
Gary Montalvo - 01:01:07.53
I don't mean agreed with or validated. I mean honored. I'm talking about respect. Given space to be recognized. Then maybe that's not the place for you.
I want to thank again my guest Michelle Moffitt for the vulnerability and her strength that she demonstrated in sharing her story. Be sure to check out her book Cracked Open for more of her story and the tools that she used to rebuild her life. You can find the link in the show notes. As always, keep leaning in, keep listening to yourself, and keep playing the Owen O'Shea game. I'll see you next week.
Thanks for listening to this episode of The Ownership Game with your host, Gary Montalvo. Make sure to like and comment on your favorite podcast platform, as well as subscribe so that you never miss an episode.